Talk:Limbo
Theory Something doesn't quite feel fight. And what I mean by that is the different methods of going into Limbo. I seem to have a problem with the time dilation. Indeed, Yusef did say that it was impossible to go into three dream layers, but they pulled it off in the movie under sedation. Obviously it is possible. That wasn't why he said it wasn't. The reason he said it was impossible was because the dreams would be so unstable that they were susceptable to collapse. You could actually get to three levels, you just couldn't stay there for long. So entering manually through regular layering is ruled out. I have no problems with Saito or Cobb entering Limbo together, as they both died on Level 1. The one that is the concern at the moment is how they enter through Fischer. Now, as opposed to Saito (who dies of both a gunshot wound to the lung and drowning on top of that) - who dies in a way where he can't possibly be brought back, Fischer is able to be revived by a defibrilator. Due to this state, the fact he wasn't quite dead, this would account for the normal time dilation. He was borderlining on Limbo, but wasn't quite past the point on no return (like Saito was.) (The your mind makes it real aspect certainly attibutes to this, though passing the body as actually aslepp doesn't quite expain hwo they pronounced him dead.) This is also why Cobb and Ariadne generated Limbo when they entered the dream, because it was Fischer's dream. But Fischer is "dead", so we have instant Limbo. Ariadne and Cobb still alive in the upper layers at this point, so time dilation is at a normal 20x. And did Cobb necessarily stay in Limbo for 50 years? Seems kind of off as well, as he would have more than likely found Saito in that time with that method. Backtrack to level 1, where Saito is dead and Cobb is alive. Him going in after would also explain the age difference between the two. My theory is that Cobb stayed in the Limbo-esqe level after Ariadne and Fischer left. Saito might have been there, but was too far away. Because he entered before Saito did, it is now his dream. So when he is kicked, the Limbo-city becomes his own level 2. Then he is kicked like he was with the bathtub at the beginning (the water would drown him in Limbo). However, he doesn't have enough time to escape (and he doesn't want to - he has to go get Saito), so he dies on level 1. Note (again) this is after Saito's death, so what is moments for Cobb is a lifetime for Saito. Now for something different. I had a bit of a problem with manually entering Limbo with going down levels. Let's say that level 3 is the absolute limit you can go down. It is a fact that Cobb and mal stayed in Limbo for 50 years, and it is also fact that 20x is the standard for time dilation. 50 years equals about 18260 days. A level up that would mean 912.5 days. Two levels up that's 45.625 days. And three levels up that is 2.28 days. That equals about 54 hours under. That means in Reality, they went 2 days without food, water, the need to go... you know. I don't think they would have done that, and their kids would have noticed if they were out for that long. And besides, that amount of time is nearly 7x the amount people spend sleeping, on average. And you don't spend all 8 hours dreaming. Granted, a PASIV device can have one dream for 8 hours. Also, that doesn't account for the infinite time dilation Limbo supposed to have. Yet the entire manually in the scenario in the article, and as a result the time dilation simply must be normal. I propose a theory for their experiments gone wrong, and this can be applied to shared dreams in general. I won't go into the details of my ziz-zag theory just yet (that itself is for another time, and is for a different dream mechanic anyways.), but it says that no person can be the dreamer (or host) of more than one dream at a time. This would explain why Nash doesn't go down into the castle with them (he is already dreaming the apartment), Authur doesn't go to the fortress with them (he is dreaming the hotel), or Yusef doesn't go under with them (he hosts the rainy city). What the theory stipulates is that if someone were to try to host more than one dream, the dream would instead change. You can't have more than one dream at once when alone, right? If done with multiple levels, a dream could potentially become the 1st and 3rd layer at the same time. If you kick yourself out of the 3rd layer and reach the second layer, no problem. Kick yourself from the second layer... you reach a dream that is both the first and third layer, again. Because there is a third layer under the second layer, the second layer cannot collapse. This makes exiting the dream entirely impossible. If the third and first layer were to hypothetically collapse, then the second layer would have to collapse. Or if the second layer collapsed, presumably the third layer would collapse, which would destroy the first layer as a result. But where would such a collapse generate from when there isn't even a way to put one in motion? Cobb and Mal, however, kept going forward. My theory is, that they pushed this paradox so far that the whole thing eventually collapsed and they wound up in an actual infinite time-dilation Limbo as they were supposed to be. Because it is already hard to believe they could get past 2 layers unaffected with just the two of them, because both would have to be a dream at some point (I am absolutely certain they never hooked up projections to the machine). If two is the limit, like Yusef said, then they couldn't have reached a place of infinite time dilation (or enough time dilation to account for the 50 years). But, if anything, these are my thoughts on the matter. Whether I'm right or I'm wrong is subjective at this point. I'll leave it to others to decide. EDIT: I just remembered why I started typing in the first place. Saito and Fischer both reach Limbo through death, but Saito ages way more considerably than Fischer does (at least, from what I can tell). This has inconsistant time dilation. That's all. 03:00, September 30, 2010 (UTC) RK :Could you move this to your blog? This is really supposed to be a talk page about the content of the article itself. You're allowed to have it here but it would be nicer if it was in your blog and it would be easier for others to comment on it. Bastian9 22:46, September 30, 2010 (UTC) : :Yes, I've posted it on there. Just thought this would be the best place to put it, since it pretty much contests the information in the article. I dunno, should I keep it here? :(Also, When I posted an signed, I unknowingly signed it as as a name that is already in use on the wiki. I don't know if I should change it though...) :RQK 23:02, September 30, 2010 (UTC) :::All you need to do is sign out than edit it. However changing it from RK to RQK is hardly necessary since people will know who you are since posted again in this discussion. The problem is that while you might think your argument refutes the article, what you have posted here is speculation, though mostly well thought out speculation. The article, however, relies only on what is seen in the movie, making as few assumptions as possible (if you see any major assumption in the article as it is now feel free to remove it or bring it up as a talking point for us to debate).Bastian9 23:12, September 30, 2010 (UTC) Doesn't make sense Although this is me picking holes in the film's plot, also the articles here don't make consistent sense. According to this article, Limbo is the deepest one can travel in the mind. Yet while in Limbo, Cobb performed Inception, which according to that article it's done by dream-sharing (ie, going deeper into someone's mind). How can you dream share in Limbo, if it's the deepest possible place to go?--Acer4666 You don't need to go deeper into someone's mind to perform inception, you just need to go deep enough and Limbo is most certainly deep enough. Bastian9 12:09, January 3, 2012 (UTC) :So it's not done by dream-sharing when you're in limbo? That should be reflected in the Inception (tactic) page then? Or is it done by dream sharing? When you say "go deep enough", go deep enough where? Into whose mind? When both parties are in limbo, how does one perform inception on the other?--Acer4666 (talk) 13:30, January 5, 2012 (UTC) ::1. No it was clearly done by just being in Limbo. ::2. Probably. ::3. Dreamsharing to get to a deep enough dream yes but Limbo is the deepest dream level so there is no need to dreamshare again nor is there way to while in Limbo. ::4. Into lower levels of dreams with Limbo being the lowest. ::5. The target's mind, though note that Limbo qualifies since it is the lowest level of everyone's mind. ::6. See last sentence. ::7. Cobb did it by going into a place that heavily represented Mal and messing with her totem to make her doubt the reality of her situation. How one tries to implant another idea while in Limbo is unknown. ::Bastian9 14:11, January 6, 2012 (UTC) :::Thanks for the answers - although I don't think it is ever explicitly stated that limbo is the deepest you can go. I always thought Dom and Mal grew to 80-year olds, then Dom did a dream share to a deeper level where they both projected themselves as young people, hence why we see a young Dom spinning the top in the safe, and a young couple with their heads on the train tracks. Then they woke up in their next level up as 80-year-olds, and did the same thing again (hence the shot of the two old hands on the train track), then got out of limbo. I may be wrong though - is limbo being the deepest level ever stated by the film or other media?--Acer4666 (talk) 17:35, January 6, 2012 (UTC) :It is explicitly stated to be the deepest you can go in the film. Also note that you can control your appearance in the dream. They aged naturally becuase they wanted to and/or they believed they should, as soon as Cobb began to reject Limbo he changed his appearance to be young again. Bastian9 13:09, January 10, 2012 (UTC) ::I don't suppose you have the quote where it is stated? Having checked some of the scenes I can't find any explicit reference to it being the deepest one can go--Acer4666 (talk) 15:04, January 15, 2012 (UTC) :::If you can't provide a quote if it being explicitly stated, then it's not explicitly stated and the information has to be removed--Acer4666 (talk) 11:00, April 12, 2012 (UTC) I'm sorry but I'm not going to spend the effort to reread the entire script to find information that was long established by many other editors. At this point all I really do is curate the wiki to make sure no one messes it up. Unless you can provide proof that all the editors were wrong, it stays. Bastian9 13:23, April 12, 2012 (UTC) :All I'm suggesting is removing the information, pending a source, for when you do want to make the effort to prove what you are saying. I wouldn't say the editors were wrong per se, more that they made an easy to make assumption that wasn't actually stated and could have different interpretations. Check out some people's interpretations here, here or here that the city Cobb and Ariadne go to from the mountain is not the lowest level, rather another dream that can go deeper. This is because, having watched the film, I found no explicit reference to limbo being the deepest level, just that it was "unconstructed dreamspace". Curating a wiki is not just about preserving everything as it is, you may as well lock every page if you're not happy about content being changed.--Acer4666 (talk) 13:41, April 12, 2012 (UTC) ::So, I've changed my mind. You were right, the information should be removed until a source can be found for it. Sorry for impeding you. I'm making the change now. Bastian9 23:45, April 16, 2012 (UTC) Read Now! LALALALALALALALALALALALAL LOLLIPOPS, OH GOD I CHOKED ON ONE, NOT HAHAHAHA GULLIBLE FOOLS